Legislature(1999 - 2000)
04/23/1999 03:10 PM Senate RES
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SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE
April 23, 1999
3:10 P.M.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Robin Taylor, Vice Chairman
Senator Pete Kelly
Senator Jerry Mackie
Senator Lyda Green
Senator Georgianna Lincoln
MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator Rick Halford, Chairman
Senator Sean Parnell
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
CS FOR HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 15(RES)
Relating to support for the "American Land Sovereignty Protection
Act" in the United States Congress.
-MOVED CSHJR 15(RES) OUT OF COMMITTEE
SENATE BILL NO. 142
"An Act relating to infestations and diseases of timber."
-MOVED CSSB 142(RES) OUT OF COMMITTEE
CS FOR SENATE BILL NO. 139(RES)
"An Act relating to the labeling of farmed fish and fisheries
products."
-SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD
PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION
HJR 15 - See Resources minutes dated 4/14/99 and 4/19/99.
SB 142 - No previous action to record.
SB 139 - See Resources Committee minutes dated 4/19/99.
WITNESS REGISTER
Ms. Myrna McGhie, Aide
Representative Jeannette James
State Capitol Bldg.
Juneau, AK 99811-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Staff for sponsor of HJR 15.
Ms. Mel Krogseng, Aide
Senator Robin Taylor
State Capitol Bldg.
Juneau, AK 99811-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 139 and SB 142.
Mr. Mark Hodgins, Aide
Senator Jerry Ward
State Capitol Bldg.
Juneau, AK 99811-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 142.
Ms. Marty Wellbourn, Program Manager
Forestry Program
Division of Forestry
Department of Natural Resources
3601 C St., 1034
Anchorage, AK 99503
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 142.
Mr. Cliff Eames
Alaska Center for the Environment
519 W 8th #201
Anchorage, Ak 99501
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 142.
Mr. Erik Holland
P.O. Box 73751
Fairbanks, AK 99707
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 142.
Ms. Amy Marsh
P.O. Box 81168
Fairbanks, AK 99708
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 142.
Mr. Dave Lacey
P.O. Box 81765
Fairbanks, AK 99708
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 142.
Ms. Pam LaBolle, President
Alaska State Chamber of Commerce
217 Second St. #201
Juneau, AK 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 142.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 99-24, SIDE A
Number 001
HJR 15-SUPPORT AMERICAN LAND SOVEREIGNTY ACT
VICE CHAIRMAN TAYLOR called the Senate Resources Committee meeting
to order at 3:10 p.m. and announced HJR 15 to be up for
consideration.
MS. MYRNA MCGHIE, Staff to Representative James, sponsor of HJR 15,
said it supports Congressman Young's resolution to confirm that
Congress approve any land designations to the World Heritage Sites
and Biosphere Reserve.
SENATOR KELLY asked what was the status of Congressman Young's
bill.
MS. MCGHIE answered that it was just introduced on the floor a
couple of weeks ago and didn't know if it was in committee yet.
This is a second try for it. Last year it went through Congress,
but there wasn't time to get it through the Senate side.
SENATOR GREEN moved to pass HJR 15 from committee with individual
recommendations and zero fiscal notes. There were no objections
and it was so ordered.
SB 139-SEAFOOD LABELING
VICE CHAIR TAYLOR announced SB 139 to be up for consideration and
since he was prime sponsor, he asked his staff person, Ms. Mel
Krogseng, to introduce it.
MS. KROGSENG informed the committee of the CS which addresses
several concerns brought up by the seafood industry in Alaska. The
changes are that they have revised the title so there is not a
requirement to label fish as "wild." It just requires labeling of
farmed fish and farmed fisheries products. Additionally, there is
an exemption for mariculture products in the State. The other
significant change is that the requirement for labeling falls on
the retailer who is actually selling the product to the consumer,
whether it be a grocery store or a restaurant.
The reason behind the bill is because of the ever increasing
farming of fish in other states and areas of the world and the
quality that is far inferior to the quality of our wild stocks in
Alaska.
MS. KROGSENG said she worked with Jerry McCune, UFA, and members of
the mariculture industry and they support the bill.
SENATOR MACKIE moved to adopt the CS to SB 139. There were no
objections and it was so ordered.
SENATOR MACKIE said he appreciated the industry's work on the "wild
and natural" language, because ASMI did a significant study in
different parts of the country and got people's ideas on different
labelings and advertisements and things that would work for selling
Alaska seafood products. One interesting thing they found was that
the term "wild salmon" sets off a negative response, because people
think that it must taste "gamey". He thought it was appropriate to
make that change.
SENATOR LINCOLN said she appreciated the work that had been done on
this issue.
MS. KROGSENG added that former legislator Dave Choquette suggested
using the description of "ocean fed and free ranging."
SENATOR MACKIE moved to pass CSSB 139 (RES) from committee with
individual recommendations. SENATOR GREEN objected.
VICE CHAIR TAYLOR asked for a roll call vote.
SENATORS MACKIE, LINCOLN, KELLY, and TAYLOR voted yes; SENATOR
GREEN voted no; and the bill moved from committee.
SB 142-TIMBER THREATENED BY PESTS OR DISEASE
VICE CHAIR TAYLOR announced SB 142 to be up for consideration and
announced an at ease from 3:23 - 3:25 p.m.
MS. KROGSENG explained that SB 142 amended statutes to require the
commissioner of the Department of Natural Resources to implement
salvage measures on state or municipal forest land when the
following conditions exist: the timber is infested or diseased and
thereby poses a significant threat to surrounding healthy timber or
surrounding private property or the area is subjected to an
environmental catastrophe thereby making the timber susceptible to
infestation or disease.
She said the original bill did not require it for the surrounding
private property, but there is a CS labeled 763 D Luckhaupt
4/22/99. This change is on page 1, line 15. The Miller's Reach
fire of 1997 caused over $40 million in damage and she asked Mr.
Hodgins to present the rest of the bill since he introduced it last
year.
Number 187
SENATOR MACKIE moved to adopt the CS to SB 142. There were no
objections and it was so ordered.
MR. MARK HODGINS, Staff to Senator Ward, said that there is not
much of an economic incentive to cut the spruce bark beetle
infested trees. Right now the incentive is the health and safety
issue that goes far beyond just idea of forest fires that could
happen. The Kenai Peninsula has between a 70 and 80 percent
mortality rate of trees with anything over eight inches in
diameter. This infestation started 10 - 12 years ago. While
nothing can be done to stop it, the amount of beetles, if we get
warmer weather, that will continue to attack the smaller trees is
simply staggering.
A smaller tree has the mechanism to defend itself against the
beetle unless it is attacked in large numbers. With the larger
trees dead and gone, the beetles are forced to go to the smaller
trees. If there is a fire, we would lose the smaller trees and the
possibly lose human life. There is also the consideration for loss
of habitat and he used the example of the scorched earth resulting
from a 1947 fire in Kenai. That fire burned through the winter and
had destroyed so much of the nutrients in the tundra that it is
still impacted.
MR. HODGINS said the moisture content of the timber that is now
standing is down 40 - 60 percent from a commercial value. The
State would not realize a profit in having a harvest there as it
would cost $8 million and they would make about $2 million. He
said that a fire would destroy growth around salmon streams and
would cause erosion. He said it would be a good idea to force the
commissioner of the Department of Natural Resources into going
through with these timber sales. There is a provision in the bill
allowing the commissioner to decide if a sale is totally
uneconomical, he could declare an areas as not needing to be
harvested. He said there is still the chance of some economic
opportunities which means there would be a chance of some forms of
reseeding.
A fireman told him that you can tell how hot a fire is by looking
at the "poles" that are left standing. If there is no debris on
it, it was an extremely hot fire; a hot fire moves fast and creates
quite a problem for the fire fighters. Spruce bark beetle "poles"
have no material on them indicating that this is a much more
dangerous fire to combat. In the past, the local wisdom has been
to let the fires burn, but now people live there.
Number 302
SENATOR KELLY said page 1 language "subject to environmental
catastrophe" was almost undefinable and is language similar to what
he used in his wolf control bill last year. General consensus from
people in the industry was that language "was screaming for a
lawsuit." He suggested "tightening up" the definition of
environmental catastrophe.
MR. HODGINS said the idea behind that is that they are not sure
what kind of liability there is if you make a decision that affects
private property next to you. If we do not contain an infestation
on state land when we are notified and it goes on to private land,
he wasn't sure if the liability could be the other way. Also, in
the case of utility lines, if they do not make any attempt to
harvest dead standing trees and the wind storm comes through and
knocks out the power, someone is liable.
SENATOR LINCOLN said she had received a lot of e-mails in
opposition to this bill for various reasons - one being costs and
the other being that the Department already has the ability to go
in and take action. She said she was concerned with the language
forcing the commissioner to declare an emergency, but once he
declares it, then it's permissive for him to do any one of the five
remedies, if he so chooses. She asked how you can force a
commissioner to enter into an agreement with a private owner.
MR. HODGINS responded that the frustration they have had in the
past is that the infestation has spread destroying good timber that
people would have like to selectively harvest. They want the
commissioner to act, but they have tried to give him a lot of
options. All the commissioner has to do in making an agreement
with a private party is go forward with the agreement, but if the
owner doesn't want to do it, there's no agreement.
MS. MARTY WELLBOURN, Division of Forestry, opposed SB 142. It
would not reduce the impact of the infestation and it would be very
expensive to implement. DNR already has the authority to declare
zones of infestation and can develop agreements with land owners.
They can offer emergency sales and waive reforestation, so when
it's not economically feasible for the private land owner to
reforest, they don't have to do it. Agency actions cannot control
the ability of the beetles to spread quickly. One of the major
factors is a warm climate. Markets for timber are very weak; some
of the sales they have offered have had no purchasers. Export
markets look for green timber. It is also very expensive to
administer timber sales and do reforestation.
MS. WELLBOURN informed the committee that the current infestation
is declining. In 1998, the acreage is about a quarter of what it
was in 1996 and they expect the decline to continue. She also
pointed out that none of the game management agencies have
identified major impacts on wildlife from the beetles alone, but
have identified particular impacts from harvesting and roading in
many areas where they are greater than from either beetles or fire.
Number 437
SENATOR TAYLOR interrupted to ask if he heard her say that his Fish
and Game Department has said that 3 + million acres has had no
impact on the habitat.
MS. WELLBOURN responded that they have identified a few species
that prefer older tree forests, like marbled marlets, but by and
large, particularly in terms of large game, the impacts from roads
and harvesting would be greater than the impacts from the bark
beetle or from fire. She said this is the conclusion of game
managers as well as forest managers.
SENATOR KELLY said Ms. Wellbourn just said that most species don't
like old growth forests. So when you cut down old growth forests
and new sprouts come back, you have increased habitat and,
therefore, you have done a good thing for the environment.
MS. WELLBOURN responded that her comments were not about old growth
in general, but that the comments from the game managers have been
that impacts particularly from roading on the large mammal species
are more severe than the impacts from the beetles.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked how many acres the Department is reforesting
this year.
MS. WELLBOURN said that all the harvests on state lands are being
reforested. Whether or not grass comes back varies tremendously
site to site. Small trees left standing after beetle infestation
doesn't open up the habitat as much as harvesting does.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked what monies the Department had requested from
the Legislature for reforestation in areas that had not been
harvested.
MS. WELLBOURN answered that they have not requested money to
reforest lands that not been harvested. She wanted to make it
clear that the Miller's Reach fire was not connected to the spruce
bark beetle. She commented that the bill, by mandating entering
agreements with owners, undercuts DNR's ability to negotiate
reasonable terms for such agreements in terms of what measures are
covered and costs. Since the private land owner would know that
the Department would be required to reach an agreement. This bill
does not apply to just the Kenai Peninsula, but applies statewide
and 1998 aerial surveys recorded 12 types of different infestations
that damaged more than 100 acres of forest lands. If that was a
total, it was one and a half million acres.
MS. WELLBOURN said the fiscal note they have submitted is very
conservative. DNR continues to salvage and reforest state land
that is affected by the infestations where these actions are
efficient and effective. They focus on areas first that have high
fire risk. However, most of the high fire risk areas are not on
state land; they are on private land. She noted that they are
working on coordinating with recommendations of the Spruce Bark
Beetle Task Force who recommended they focus salvage efforts on
areas where there are truly areas of high fire risk.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked what the Department did to stop or eradicate
any of the 12 infestations she mentioned.
MS. WELLBOURN replied that it depended on where it was. Many of
the infestations are in areas that are not high priority because of
their remoteness and the costs would make them uneconomical.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked what she had done in the last four years to
mitigate beetle infestation.
MS. WELLBOURN replied that they reforest lands where it's feasible
and where there is high fire risk. They have additional sales to
reoffer, because there were no buyers in their first offering.
They have an ongoing program to reduce risk like removing trees
along power lines.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked what was the estimated impacted acreage on the
Kenai Peninsula.
Number 576
MS. WELLBOURN answered that it totaled about 70,000 acres,
including federal lands.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked how many acres they had offered for sale.
MS. WELLBOURN answered that they have offered 10,000 so far.
SENATOR TAYLOR retorted that's in the four years she has been there
and asked her how many this year.
MS. WELLBOURN answered close to 1,000 by May 1 and an additional
20,000 over the next five years.
SENATOR TAYLOR calculated that if you add 10,000 to 21,000, that
comes to about 31,000. So they are averaging about 3,000 acres per
year.
MS. WELLBOURN added of the state lands that are infested, they
estimate about 48,000 acres are feasible to harvest. That means if
there was some way to get into it, someone would buy it.
TAPE 24, SIDE B
SENATOR TAYLOR said they have waited so long to offer the sale that
there isn't any value left in the timber.
MS. WELLBOURN retorted that that market is just weak now and even
for green timber people aren't finding buyers.
SENATOR TAYLOR noted that before the infestation in Homer, no one
would cut a tree down and now people are out clear cutting around
their homes so they won't burn down. He asked why there isn't
significant increase in harvesting on state land.
MS. WELLBOURN answered that there has been. About six to eight
years ago, they harvested about 200 acres per year and now we're
harvesting about 2,000 acres per year. She said that most of the
timber on the Kenai Peninsula is uneconomical to harvest because of
access and the quality of timber.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked her if she ever worked for the private sector
in forestry related positions.
MS. WELLBOURN answered no.
Number 510
MR. CLIFF EAMES, Alaska Center for the Environment, opposed SB 142
because it is unnecessary. He commended Ms. Wellbourn for her
testimony and said they frequently disagree with the Division on
whether or not beetle killed trees should be logged on public lands
and on the Kenai Peninsula, in particular. There are a great many
Alaskans who don't think it makes sense overall to harvest and
build a road system on state owned lands on the Kenai Peninsula
except where there is substantial fire risk to communities and
individuals.
He said the Navarre Task Force has done an excellent job trying to
bring people on the Peninsula and throughout the region together to
address these most urgent problems. This bill would open old
wounds, whereas the Navarre Task Force has done a commendable job
in healing some of those differences.
Public lands that have trees on them are not there just to be
logged although it is appropriate on some of those lands. There
are higher values on many of the lands including fish and wildlife
habitat, water quality for fish and water sources for humans. He
has never found a biologist who believes the habitat would be
better off with large scale logging and road building. The
Division of Forestry has accelerated their logging program on the
Peninsula, but the major reason they have not done more is because
there is a great deal of public resistance and they have not
received adequate funding from the legislature. If you really want
to log a lot of state owned lands on the Kenai Peninsula, you have
to pay the Division of Forestry to lay out and administrate the
sales and pay operators to remove the trees.
MR. ERIK HOLLAND, Fairbanks, said SB 142 is filled with vague
phrases that completely bypass the public process. He didn't know
if the legislature was familiar with the controversy in the
Interior regarding logging in sensitive salmon spawning areas. It
has been hard enough to slow down logging in these areas without
having a bill like SB 142 adding to the pressure to log. He found
it amusing how concerned some people are with forest health as this
bill would be fairly expensive. We don't even have enough money to
take care of Alaskan people who need health care and are
susceptible to heart disease, cancer, and dental problems. He
suggested letting locals work out their problems and not spend
public funds on this.
SENATOR TAYLOR said if you really want to fish and see wildlife in
California, Oregon, or Washington, you can really see it on
privately owned forest lands where people know how to manage
forests. If the same people were managing our forests that were
managing for the professional companies like Weyerhouser, they
would have never allowed the decimation and loss of this resource.
MR. HOLLAND said he thought a lot of it is that folks are concerned
that the landscape in Fairbanks would come to resemble that of
Washington and Oregon today and that we are spending federal funds
to restore our salmon fisheries now and they would rather not go
down that road.
SENATOR TAYLOR commented that another big problem with salmon is
that there are a lot of people on rivers who gillnet fish and strip
their roe, sell it to the Japanese, and then throw the carcasses
back into the stream.
Number 402
MS. AMY MARSH, Fairbanks, said that she is concerned about SB 142
because it has the potential to fast track controversial sales
without thorough public review. If the salvage sale has other
values of the forest, such as fish habitat, the public deserves a
chance to comment. This bill affects all of Alaska, but the
problems it addresses are not statewide problems. These problems
need to be dealt with on a case by case basis, not by all-
encompassing legislation.
The Division of Forestry has testified that this bill will not
provide any effective new tools to deal with the spruce bark beetle
infestations.
MR. DAVE LACEY opposed SB 142 because he thought it was management
by fiat which he opposed. He thought professional people like Ms.
Wellbourn should be allowed to do their jobs. The fiscal note is
way too low to accomplish what the bill sets out and he didn't know
where the money would come from.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if believed in management by epidemic.
MR. LACEY answered that he didn't.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked what he would do if this was his forest.
MR. LACEY said that was an interesting question and he didn't look
at the spruce bark beetle infestation as a disaster movie scenario.
He thought because of global warming the beetles were growing
stronger and he thought we should address the root of the problem
rather than the symptoms.
Number 356
MS. PAM LABOLLE, Alaska State Chamber of Commerce, supported SB
142. She said this has been a priority of the State Chamber for
three years. In a 1994 DNR report it says the beetle kill renders
the wood unusable within three years. If the Department would
allow commercial harvest of the trees before they are totally dead,
the commercial operators would reforest. It would be a win win
situation. Her constituents want the opportunity to harvest the
standing fuel load because that's all that's left.
She said the State of Alaska is bound by its Constitution, Article
8 to manage its renewable resources for sustained yield and by
ignoring the beetle epidemic, the DNR is going against Article 8.
SENATOR TAYLOR said that he agreed with her.
Number 292
SENATOR MAKCIE said the Alaska Forest Association opposed this bill
last year and wanted to know their position now. He also wanted to
know if this affected the Forest Practices Act (F.P.A.).
MR. HODGINS replied that this bill specifically excludes AS
41.17.115 - AS41.17.119 (riparian areas managed on private lands,
public lands next to streams, and the standards for other public
lands). This means the commissioner cannot make any adjustments
on the Forest Practices Act near the streams. He can make
adjustments in the FPA involving the count of trees in areas that
didn't previously have a count (the end of the reforestation
section).
SENATOR MACKIE said that the Forest Association opposed this bill,
though.
MR. HODGINS replied the reason for their opposition is the DNR said
if they have to do this on the Kenai Peninsula and harvest dead
trees, there would be less dollars available for areas of green
timber. The funding sources are finite.
SENATOR MACKIE said his understanding was that some of their
opposition was due to the changes the bill would make to the Act
which they worked real hard on to find a balance.
MR. HODGINS said he didn't recall that discussion.
SENATOR MACKIE asked Senator Taylor to talk to someone at the
Forest Association to find out their position.
MS. KROGSENG testified that the Miller's Reach fire wasn't
initially started by trees killed by spruce bark beetles; but from
all the information she gathered, it helped in the horrendous
devastation and magnitude of that fire. She said the spruce bark
beetle is all over the State and depending on the weather, we could
see major outbreaks very soon in other areas.
VICE CHAIR TAYLOR said he drove through the burned area that is now
covered with grass and that experts have told him that it would be
difficult to reforest because the grass would choke the trees off.
They estimated that natural regeneration would take between 100 and
150 years to recover.
He didn't think SB 142 changed the Forest Practices Act, but it
allows for exceptions by a commissioner, but he didn't know if it
was damaging to the Act or not.
Number 150
SENATOR GREEN moved to pass SB 142 from committee with individual
recommendations. There were no objections and it was so ordered.
SENATOR MAKCIE said that he wanted to hear the Forest Association's
position before he would support it further.
VICE CHAIR TAYLOR adjourned the meeting at 4:45 p.m.
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